Lawyers representing members of the Bali Nine, drug trafficking gang, who are on death row, will challenge their conviction next month.
Australia outlaws the death penalty, and feels uncomfortable with the fact that 6 of its citizens, are set to face it in another country. Lawyers for the 6 on death row, will argue imposing the death penalty in drugs cases, contravenes the constitution and international law.
My call: Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukuamaran get death. The others get life, or even less if they can find a ‘Big Solution’.
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{ 7 comments }
“Australia outlaws the death penalty, and feels uncomfortable with the fact that 6 of its citizens, are set to face it in another country.”
Without getting into the fors and againsts of capital punishment, I would suggest that the situation could be expressed more accurately as follows. Australian governments have abolished the death penalty almost certainly against the wishes of most of the Australian people, who would like to see it retained for at least some very serious crimes.
I don’t think that most Australians would regard being a silly young drug courier as warranting death. But organisers etc could be seen differently, as you suggest.
I have never been involved with drugs on any level, I’ve never even smoked a cigarette in the whole of my life. [Half one when I was 10, didn't like it, couldn't finish it. How lucky was that?] But I see addicts as unfortunate people with a health problem, probably starting when they were too young to think the ramifications through in a rational manner.
I would like to see Australian drug addicts encouraged to register with appropriate health professionals and, at least initially, supplied with their drug of addiction free of charge in a safe environment, whilst helpful strategies were being worked on. Surely this would cut out much of the illegal drug trade.
Some would ask why their taxes were paying for drugs, but it’s already costing us far more for largely ineffectual enforcement of unworkable laws.
The illegal drug trade in Australia has touched me in a second-hand sort of way. A few years ago, the son of some Perth friends was slowly and brutally murdered over drug deals which allegedly weren’t paid for on time.
And the mother of one of the young men hanged in Malaysia some time ago was a neighbour when we lived in North Fremantle. This kind of thing brings the present situation into perspective to some extent.
I enjoyed reading Rex’s comments and think they deserve a wider audience. But I would take issue with the comment:
“I would suggest that the situation could be expressed more accurately as follows. Australian governments have abolished the death penalty almost certainly against the wishes of most of the Australian people, who would like to see it retained for at least some very serious crimes.”
Whilst some surveys give that impression, other surveys show a clear preference for genuine life imprisonment over the death penalty. It seems the problem is that many are concerned that ‘life imprisonment’ usually means considerably less than that.
I’d also add that I am horrified at the idea of thge death penalty or even draconion sentences for drug couriers. Last week I received a letter back from such a person and the overwhelming impression is of a sweet but gullible kid with self esteem issues. I am stunned that anybody could see somebody like her as being the ‘worst of the worst’. I don’t want to be protected from these people for a couple of decades. I want them rehabilitated and restored to life asap. What’s wrong with that?
Someone from another planet newly arrived here on Earth might not know that smuggling drugs across international borders , especially in Asia, carries harsh penalities.
Those caught performing this activity are either opportunists or a few sandwiches short of a lunch.
Pleading ignorance or some other lame excuse after the fact is no defence.
Do the Crime , Do the time.
Or in the case of the death penalty.
Count the time.
Haa.. the irony, the required character code for this post is DEA##
I can’t fault your reasoning on this, Eddie. I just wonder what’s in the heads of those who dabble in illegal drugs, on any level, in countries like Indonesia. I certainly don’t blame the Indonesian authorities for taking firm action to try and control this scurge. Nor do I blame the Australian police for co-operating appropriately.
I don’t know where you’re from, or currently live, but it may be that you see some laws and/or penalties, for at least some alleged crimes/misdemeanors, as inappropriately severe or weak. “Let the punishment fit the crime” often obviously doesn’t apply in Australia in many cases and I’m sure the same could be said for probably every country on earth.
My suggestion that addicts in Australia should be encouraged to register with health authorities and be treated for their health problem, rather than for their user-only criminality, would help to break the chain. I know if I needed something badly and I could get it free from a govt clinic, then that’s the way I would go. I have no idea if this approach would work in Indonesia, but I think it would be worth considering anywhere.
I think it’s easy to demonise addicts and say how stupid they must be and I must say I sometimes feel a bit this way myself. But we could also consider it this way. As a lifetime total non-smoker, non-gambler, light drinker and a person who has never had a physical or psychological condition which has required prescription drugs which can lead to addiction, it’s maybe easy for me to talk.
But I would suggest that almost anyone who smokes tobacco and also many who drink and gamble regularly already know what it feels like to have a potentially harmful addiction. So perhaps people like that could have at least a little empathy with those addicted to illegal drugs.
Seems to me Eddie is denying the doctrine of proportionality of sentencing and will accept any sentence for any crime so long as the country has publicly declared the crime and sentence. Would he also accept the death penalty for jaywalking if the sentence was well advertised? How about homosexuality? Or failure of a Jew to wear the star of David, carry a passbook or live outside a designated ghetto?
The United Nations conventions specify that the death penalty should only be for the worst of the worst. Drug couriers aren’t trying to kill anybody; they’re naive, greedy kids usually with self esteem issues that make it difficult for them to say ‘no’. Their actions don’t even lead to death without the active complicity of the victims.
Doesn’t matter how many signs you put at the airports. Executions and draconion sentences are not proportionate to the crime and are morally wrong.
Yes, Geoff, Eddie perhaps sees things as more “black and white” than some of us do. I think that we probably all see some illegal acts as warranting a greater or lesser degree of punishment than the laws [and customs] of our respective jurisdictions generally allow, or enforce in court. This could depend on our personal experiences/upbringing/religion etc.
Eddie was rational in his last post and I commended him for that. But I also asked if he had any views on other penalties for various “crimes” wherever he is currently living. It may be that he sees some so-called offences as over punished, or inadequately punished. I know that I often feel this way about our Australian legal system. Note that I do not call it a justice system!
In regard to whether or not most Australians would have liked capital punishment to be retained here as an option. [I don't know where you are from, but presumably you are familiar with the way it is here.] I certainly don’t think that anyone should be executed on the basis of circumstantial evidence, regardless of how strong and conclusive that may appear to be. But sometimes there is no doubt whatsoever.
Martin Bryant, the Port Arthur mass murderer for instance. I can think of no good reason why he is still alive.
Some years ago, in Western Australia, a pair of serial sex torturers and killers called David and Catherine Birney were arrested. There were no doubts about their guilt. One of their intended teenage female victims escaped from their home and led the police back.
They were both jailed. It was widely thought that David was responsible for possibly a number of unsolved murders/disappearances, but, if true, that knowledge went with him when he committed suicide after a number of years. Why should people like that be allowed to take such knowledge to the grave? And before he went, he violently sexually assaulted another male prisoner. Far better, in my opinion, that he [and his wife, who was equally involved] be suitably interrogated and then put down.
We are often told that it costs more to execute someone than to keep them in prison indefinitely, but I just don’t believe it. I’ve never seen any actual comparative figures on this and I think that the public are being deliberately misled.
If indeed this is true, then it cannot be justified and is merely an example of gross incompetance in the handling of public money.
Yes its true. Dear Eddie will accept any fate that is dished out to an offender if its well advertised.
Ignorance is not a defence.
Unless of course you are newly arrived from another planet.
Mental and a physical drug dependancy is not a sickness but merely a weakness.
Some punishments are political ploys
The case against Saddam is an elegant example.
Its seems in our modern world the deterrents are getting weaker.. much to the delight of the criminal class. Rape, murder and pillage then sit back and wait for the bleeding heart brigades to come to your rescue.
No thanks
String em up.. Shoot em.. throw them on the fire..
Get rid of the bastards that have no respect for others lives and property.
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