In the past I have mentioned some of the Muslim crazies who go around the country whipping up trouble. There are 3 or 4 groups who seek communities that are split along religious lines. It happend in Ambom, Sulawesi and other parts of the country.
Previously the people all got along and after the knuckleheads were finished, decent people were killing each other. The latest flare up is in Central Sulawesi where 3 policemen have recently been murdered. Today's Jakarta Post details 3 Christian schoolgirls being beheaded on their way to school. I'd say that's a pretty clear signal someone is unhappy.
My friend Mike Hillis is starting a new venture in Ambon and recently I talked to a Christian girl from Ambom. She told me that prior to the troubles in 1999, all Muslims and Christians lived side by side. Now they live in 2 different parts of town and people are still scared to venture to either. Bali is in the cross hairs too with its Hindu majority living side by side in peace with an ever growing Muslim minority. Let's hope SBY call 'Guliani time' on all trouble makers in Indonesia.
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People had been killing each other before religions came to be. In fact it was like that way back in time when we were just little mammalian critters - if you believe the evolution theory. Religions are now the convenient scapegoats for men’s killing instinct. Cro-Magnons wiped out the Neanderthals completely except for Tony.
Now, we are supposed to be smarter and civilized. There are no more excuses for people killing people for whatever reasons.
Hey Tony,
“Don’t excuse the actions of these animals you piece of sh-t”
Keep your cool bud, and there in no need for name-calling. Or else go back to etiquette 101. I bet you’ve been hanging out with Phil too long.
Who’s giving them excuses? Just in case you missed it, read my comment again: “There are no more excuses for people killing people for whatever reasons”
“Muslims are going around killing non-Muslims because they aren’t Muslim.”
I disagree with you on that. These Muslim fanatics are going around killing anyone who opposes them regardless of their religion. They probably kill more fellow Muslims and non-Muslims.
Happy Ramadan.
This is a sickening crime against all Indonesians and all good people of this world. The only way to stop this is to appeal to the World to put pressure on the goverment here to take action now. Where is the Vatican and all the great Christian relief organisations. Stop the flow of money and aid until basic civil liberties are restored. If this means a boycott well i will also suffer, but better now while I can breathe than after the next atrocity.
Boycott who or what? Can you be specific? Boycott Bali? Boycott all Indonesian products? Who do you think will suffer? The Indonesian elites will probably be okay since they have so much money anyway. The poor people including you will suffer the most. If the Indonesian economy collapses there will be political instability and turmoil. Imagine an Islamic country as massive as Indonesia is thrown into chaos? No one wants Indonesia with its massive Muslim population to become another Iran, Iraq or Afghanistan.
SBY is the best hope we all have to put the Indonesia in order. It would be best for all of us to support him, because there are no alternatives. You are making your home in that country, I am sure you have more faith in it more than you would admit.
Most killings in the 20th, 21st century have actually NOT been in the name of religion.
Sure, there’s been the Iraq insurgency.
Beyond that, most mass killing have just been by godless despots.
Cambodia’s killing fields.
Russia’s gulags.
Germany’s camps.
China’s great leap forward.
Iraq’s ‘traitors’.
Rwanda’s ‘cockroaches.’
The list goes on. The more you think about it, the more it seems that killing in the name of religion has historically been very RARE but for the spate of Islam fanaticism experienced recently.
In fact, three of the four worst examples (Russia, China and Cambodia) followed from avowed atheists. The other - Hitler - was unique for the fact he considered himself god.
Mat.
I am not condoning the murderous acts of Muslim terrorists. I am saying that we should not put the blame on their religion. The blame should be solely on the men and women who committed the crimes. There are more than a billion Muslims in the world. How many of them are engaging in terrorism? Probably it’s a tiny minority.
My question for you is this: Do you think Islam is the problem? If so, why and how?
Chris suggest you look here:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/
or here http://www.faithfreedom.org/quran.htm
you will probably find the answer to this question
well the fact that more than a million muslims in iran marched in support of their presidents comments on israel (he said Israel should be wiped off the map) shows that there a lot of muslims out there whose beliefs aren’t peaceful at all.
i find it hard to believe its only a tiny minority.
mat.
johnb, thanks for the links. I am reading it now.
johnb, I have been doing some research on Islam, and I found some interesting facts.
Islam is tolerant of other religion, right?
Can any of our Muslim friends explain this passage from Quran?
Sura 5.51 (Al-Maida):
“Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends and protectors. They are friends and protectors of one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship and support them shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrongdoers.”
Here is another one from the Quran.
Al-Nisa 4.87 tru 4.90:
“He whom Allah has led astray cannot be guided. They would have you disbelieve as they themselves have done, so that you may all be alike. Do not befriend them until they have fled their homes for the cause of Allah. If they desert you, seize them and put them to death wherever you find them.”
It sounds like Muhammad was telling his people to kill former Muslims (those who have left Islam for whatever reasons.)
Yeh he was saying that.
Apostates are regularly killed all throughout the muslim world.
Most Muslims actually don’t read the Koran/Quran/whatever. So many stories I have personally heard of Muslims coming out of Islam contain ’so I started to read my Koran… and found rarara..’
Mat.
to Chris..thank u to learn Quran..but dont quote Quran like comic. Every sentence has its own context. You can not take it as single piece without try to relate it to other pieces. Some sentence in Quran tell about histories, it doesnt mean that we should have to repeat that history. Just learn it and dont make some mistakes. I guess you’re educated enough not to be provocator. Its obvious that u hate moslem like Nazi hates Jews.
Timothius,
I bet you never thought about giving the same advice to osama bin laden, abu bakar bashir, other cold blooded vigilantes, and all those well educated kids in the pesantren.
Face it while there are good aspects of the Quran it is a story that has a lot of killing, rape, and murder as well.
Nice of you to speak up on this blog but the problem is that moderate muslims in indo like yourself stay silent when atrocities like suicide bombings and the killing of schoolgirls occur.
You seem somewhat emotional here - having a problem making an intellectual argument! try and be intellectual and educate us. or spend your energy educating some of your fellow muslims. Instead of accusing someone who is attempting to understand and be educated of being a facist. Or maybe you are acting emotionally because you dont know any other way to intellectually explain these parts of the Quran that are often used by extremists to rationalize their actions.
Timothius,
I am NOT a Muslim hater as you have accused me of. If you had read my previous comments, you would have agreed with me.
How else can you interpret that Al-Maida 5.51? I think it is so clear-cut in its intention. As a Muslim you are instructed by Allah not to make contact with the Jews and Christians or else you’ll become a transgressor.
Maybe there are other passages in Quran that tell you to love the Jews and Christians. But if that is the case, then those passages will certainly contradict this one, right? Perhaps Allah kept changing His mind as to what to do with the Jews and Christians. But that too contradicts the basic tenet of Islam: Allah is all knowing, Wise and Forgiving.
Here is another passage.
Al-Nisa 4.34
“Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the others, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen (parts) because Allah has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Allah is High, Supreme.”
It sounds like Allah is telling Muslim men to beat their disobedient women. I welcome anyone with different interpretation to enlighten me.
More from the Quran.
Al-Tawba 9.4
Proclaim woeful punishment to the unbelievers, except those idolaters who have fully honored their treaties with you and aided none against you. With these keep faith, until their treaties have run their term. Allah loves the righteous.
Al-Tawba 9.5
When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and pay the alms-tax, let them go their way. Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
Al-Tawba 9.29
Fight against such of those to whom the Book was given as believe neither in Allah nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what Allah and His Apostle have forbidden, and do not embrace the true faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued.
Al-Tawba 9.39
If you do not fight He [Allah] will punish you sternly and replace you with other men
From those passages, it is clear that Allah demands all Muslim men to fight infidels and kill them unless they pay alms-tax or tribute money. Also, it sounds like Allah is okay with Muslims robbing the infidels. Perhaps in the early days Muslims used these passages to justify the raiding and robbing of merchants’ caravans.
he probably wrote the passages after someone was giving him stick about the morality of their little raids
mat.
“That’s certainly how they interpret in Saudi Arabia.” and most of the muslim world. the bits of the muslim world that don’t live in western countries and aren’t required to justify themselves to the media 15 times a week
mat.
“the bits of the muslim world that don’t live in western countries and aren’t required to justify themselves to the media 15 times a week”
Well Said!
Te problem is not the Quoran or the Bible or any of the Scriptures. The problem is MANAGEMENT. As a Catholic i am obligated to follow the instructions and Leadership of my Pope. The fact that I may not like what he tell’s me or agree with his Leadership does not matter, I either follow or leave the Catholic Church. Easy right,and even though I dont know this new Pope from a hole in the head and i am still getting over the paedophile scandals my path is clear. My Muslim brothers and Sisters have no BOSS and therfore are in danger of being led by anyone who can communicate to them in a language they can understand since the Quoran is written and taught in Arabic. This can cause good men or evil men to position themselves as the Voice Of Allah and lately it seems to this Catholic that the loudest voice or smartest communicator fill’s that role whether it is the Ayatollah or Bin Ladin or anyone else they choose. This is their religion and their choice and while i am sorry that they do not have a structure like me to follow in a language I undersatnd it is not my business. No large group or Organisation cane exist effectively without a chain of command whether military or civil. I as a catholic cannot change the Muslim faith or his right to practice, I can only be happy that I have a BOSS and that he did speak yesterday to condenm this outrage. Other than that all I can do is build on our similarities whic are many.
If the Quran explicitly says that you must kill infidels, then how else can you interpret it differently?
Sher Khan was quoted as saying:
“if the constitution of a country demands its citizen to kill horses, everyone is at liberty to shoot any horse on sight. There might be animal rights groups and humane societies to condemn such acts but nothing will change the people’s mind. The Quran is the constitution of Islam and Muslims are obliged to follow each word of this book. Islam can only be reformed by changing the Quran.”
Therefore, how can the leadership of Islam stop any true Muslim from killing any unbeliever?
On the managerial side of the equation, the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) seems to generally come down on the side of the beheaders continued use of Islam to justify textbook Jihad.
You might want to look here: http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=59411&d=23&m=2&y=2005&pix=kingdom.jpg&category=Kingdom
So what do we make of all this?
Looking at the islamic birthrate, the continuing Dahawa, and the general Dhimmitude among Western politicians and media (islamic terrorism has nothing to do with islam, god forbid no!), does this mean we are all going to be subjects of Allah in the next generation?
Should I think about getting my kids circumcised?
(Luckily, I have 2 boys, so at least they are in privileged gender group…)
So what do we make of all this?
Looking at the islamic birthrate, the continuing Dahawa, and the general Dhimmitude among Western politicians and media (islamic terrorism has nothing to do with islam, god forbid no!), does this mean we are all going to be subjects of Allah in the next generation?
Should I think about getting my kids circumcised?
(Luckily, I have 2 boys, so at least they are in privileged gender group…)
the quoran also sais that Crhistians and jews misinterpreted “the message”, they changed it a little, but if they live according to rightious and honest believes, they will go to heaven. The credo, the fundament of Islam is bliss, happiness for all people (muslim and non-muslim)
when you read those other soera’s you have to put them in the right context, and then you can understand them better. For sure is that those terrorist don’t interprete them in the good way either.
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