Hardline Muslim leaders in Indonesia condem suicide bombings

I can’t read the cartoon. It won’t expand.

Th bubble = “Pay attention because I am only going to do this once, OK”.
The two signs say Terrorist Training School
and Human Bomb Class.

You weren’t in Indonesia on September 12, 2001, were you? If you had, you would have heard lots of laughter and seen lots of smirks.

If the hardliners really opposed terrorism and the killing of the kafir (infidels), why do you think it has taken them so long to say so?

And just because someone smiles and shakes your hand, doesn’t mean they like you.

At a court case in Indonesia this week:

“Hang them! Hang them! Hang Rebekkah!” the crowd shouted.

“If Rebekkah asks forgiveness and enters Islam, will you forgive her?” a protest leader asked while shouting through a megaphone.

“No! No! Punish her! Kill Rebekkah! Hang her!” the crowd responded.

for more see:
http://indcoup.blogspot.com/

you see, that’s where you are wrong. And you dont have to speak about left or right wing, that doesn’t matter. First of all, befor you start discussing about Islam, you should first learn some basic knowledge about the religion.
Second, killing terrorists won’t solve the problem, The americans are only aggravating the problem. To solve this, we will all have to work on the roots of the problem not the on the consequences of the problem.
Do you know in the Koran the word martyr is only used in the sence of testifying that you believe? (ancient Greek: Martyreo=testify)

And more, it’s the USA that installed Osama Ben Laden in Afghanistan. He was just a rich playboy who was boring himself, so the CIA used him and others to settle little problems via controlled jihad-terror. Only now it’s already long time out of control.

no, that last thing ofcourse not. But i just wanted to say, that there are very likely whole number of things with a smell. And fuck it, what i said about bin laden or cia, that was the least important.
And i know with these guys there’s no reasoning possible, but when i say roots, i mean we should do something bout the big sea these few radical “leaders” are fishing from. If we can make life more normal, ‘better’ for the untouched ones, they won’t get the virus.
And i also mean western world doesn’t have to teach other countries about democracy, we just live in a fake one. Oke, now i am talking particularly about Europe, where -certainly in my Belgium- the parliament hasn’t got any power any more, the political parties have it. the representatives have to vote in party-lines… etc.

Osama bin Laden is a fabrication by the American government for its War on Terror. If he was real how come the CIA can’t find him?

John, do you *really* believe the CIA is “all-knowing” with god-like powers? Hahahaha!

“Killing those trying to destroy western civilisation is the only option”

Excellent in theory, impossible in reality.

Unfortunately Tony you are not correct here, I really wish you were.

Iraq was only ever held together as a country by dictatorships first the British and then saddam the idea that what currently is considered to be Iraq could ever function as a free and democratic country could only ever be dreamed by people who have no understanding or it’s history or it’s population and the divitions in it’s society. Currently the vast majority of the news and media and significantly censored by the allies, we only get to see what they want us to see, the reality is far worse and the political succeses we are led to believe are occuring just a sham.

Certainly in some of the shia areas life is lauded because the number of deaths and acts of viloence have been reducing and things are seeming to come under control however again the reality is very different, the fighting in these areas are reducing because they are coming under the control of mullas and warlords, the allies are merely bystanders with no control or power.

So currently the situation is that the sunni areas have become allied and supported by al quada and the shia strongholds now allied with Iran, Americas most fundamental enemies. Iraq is now the worlds prime breeding ground for Isamic extremeism.

As for Afghanistan, have you ever been there Tony hahaha. You can kill people, but the war is not against people it is against an idea, you cannot kill ideas by killing people, not unless you kill every single one, but how can you do that when they hide and don’t come out saying shoot me mr good guy, and even when you do find one and kill them there’s another ready to take their place, a bit like the terminator really, now theres a good film.

I understand you frustrations Tony, and your longing for good to triumph over evil. But you are seeing the world in balck and white, reality is different. For once please try and learn something instead of believeing you know, unless you really are happy to be spoon fed propaganda all day like a ‘good little boy’ hahaha. As for speaking the truth, you reach the truth through questioning, how can you speak the truth if you refuse to question?

Anyway

‘But then again, a democracy where people have unalienable human rights has never been implemented.’

I’m 100% with you Tony I fully believe in democracy for the whole world and I am a capitalist, damm I even enjoy reading Ayn Rand. But I am also a praticle man, so my point is No it hasn’t and it never will be in the country of ‘Iraq’, The problem is you choice of words it not inappropriate, ‘implement’, the idea that you can come along and implement something of this nature to a disaparate people with the history and makeup of Iraq is absurd, of course the politicians know better.

Were you aware that untill superbowl day 2003 President Bush had no idea of the difference between shia and sunni and he had no idea that they made out significant proportions of iraq, and the appropriation of power that it caused under saddam?, this was after the invasion had been planned. It is lunacy of the highest level. I’m pretty sure you won’t find that in any of sun Tzu work.

‘It’s in national interests to not report on things that will empower the enemy or give away strategic and tactical information. Compare the American media to any other media on Earth, especially media in the Middle East, and there is no comparison.’

hahaha, jesus you kill me man, empower the enemy, strategic and tactical importance hahaha. So i guess having the freedom to say that daily life is great for Iraqis if you like living in a war zone, and that the allies have lost control is of strategic and tactical importance.

‘Iraqis hate Iran as much as America.’

Oh yeah, tell me Tonie how many Iraqis in Iraq have you asked, and don’t tell me what propaganda has told you. Religion is far stronger than nations as far as the shia are concerned. As for the sunnis and al quada being linked ideologically, you are saying that you do have an ideological axe to grind. But again as I said before anyone with any knowledge of Iraq WOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT THIS WOULD HAVE OCCURED.
my apologies i’ll stop shouting now.

‘The war in Afghanistan was and is against the Taliban, a ruthless group of Islamists who imposed Sharia Law on the population.’

Oh is see tonie thanks for that i’ve never read a newspaper before. So seeing as you know so much please exlain to me the exact political situation in Afghanistan, who really holds power in what areas, and where the current gay clubs are in kabul.

‘Sure in some areas, but for the overwhelming majority of the country, this is not the case. 8 million Iraqis voted in the last election.’

Yes of course but that in no way disproves my point that the country in either a war zone or being run by mullah and warlords.

Ok so thats it for now tonie, i’ll be interested to see what kiss arse crap you come out with next.

Tony, you dont have to explain the democratic system. you really think i’m that stupid? ofcourse the representatives are chosen ‘democratically’, but they dont get to do what they were chosen for. that’s my point.
And what about the EU? that’s the best thing ever happened. it’s a difficult organisation, but because of the EU there hasnt been war in in Western-Europe since ww2; that’s 60 years, the longest non war period in history.
America is still strong now, but the fantasy is almost over.
People like you, or at least your ideas, are the reason that so many poor people in the world get so crazy they wanna kill you.
i dont agree with this, certainly not.
But both of you groups cant be blamed,
aparently you both didn’t get a good education

“Propaganda? All I ever hear are bad stories coming out of Iraq. The media glosses over any progress being made.”

Ah yes progress, I believe they are opening the first Mcdonalds next week.

“How else does a democracy come about? It’s implemented by people at one time or the other. You are implying Iraqis are savages who don’t have the sophistication to live amongst people of different beliefs and origins. That’s absurd.”

Now, now, calm down my man. I certainly don’t think the Iraqis are savages. I am making the point that if you go around invading, destroying and killing and forcing your will and beliefs on other people, no matter what those beliefs are and whether they are for good or are for bad you are going to end up with a whole heap of mess especially in a country that in the first place was only tenuosly held together, that is the practicle and rational reality, and that is what you have got.

The US and Britain has been interfering in middle east for a long period of time, always for their own benefit, not the benefit of the people there, you really need to get your history books out and learn how the present situation was created in the middle east and the wests significant part in it, we have effectively created this mess for ourselves. The reason you fear for western civilisation is our fault hahaha. You can sit and say it’s down to the koran telling people to kill non believers all you like but that just makes you an idiot who is not prepared to learn. Anyway have you ever actually read the bible and seen whats in there hahaha.

“The country isn’t being run by mullahs and warlords. That is insane. The American military is still in Afghanistan.”

Its insane, hahaha, you have no idea what is going on in Afghanisatan no idea at all, but of course you speak the truth hahaha. BTW the american military is still in Iraq and they sure as hell aren’t running that country.

“Where do you get this crap from? It’s unsubstantiated horseshit. Bush is advised by thinktanks anyway.”

hahahah. This is what i mean toniieee, ‘bush is advised by thintanks’, man goverments love poeple like you, as gullible as little kids. Anyway superbowl 2003, Bush invited the main players who at the time formed Iraqs ‘opposition’, they had the pleasure of informing the venerable Mr bush of the makeup of Iraq. Now watch ths dirve!

‘Iraqis haven’t forgiven Iran. The hate Iran. It’s fact. The Iraq-Iran war didn’t stop Shiites in Iran killing Shiites in Iraq.’

Iraqis haven’t forgiven Iran? saddam started the bloddy thing and used chemical waepons don’t you think it should be the other way round. Anyway it hasn’t stopped Muqtada al-Sadr, who incidently for the sake of ‘peace’ the allies cannot now touch.

Still you know everyting Toniiee, I like the way you always say this is a fact, that is a fact, this is truth, it’s funny though the ones in this life that shout the loudest always seem to understand the least.

What is this rant doing on a blog about Bali??

pff, well to conclude this pointless discussion.
the world is a nice place sometimes, you’ve just got to find it.

so much emotion because its important. I’m gonna jump in here after reading many of these posts.
Bush made mistake by attacking Iraq. Best he can do now is minta maaf to those who can fix it (Shia, Kurds, Sunni, Allies, UN). US troops pull back into Kurd and Shia areas, offer all support to those provinces that want the help to rebuild and protect itself. Sunnis then have choice to ask for stability from outside. If they want the murderers there, tht’s thier problem. Kurd and Shia areas may come out fine, Sunni area will suffer as long as evil people are in power. Gee, that just duplicated the Saddam in power of Iraq problem duplcated on smaller scale! hahahaha. Before the US invasion, Saddam was toothless, unable to be serious threat to anyone. USA enforced no-fly zone regularaly to keep him in his cage. Thats the best we can hope for now.
George Bush would become “man of the year” with his apology, and begin to show the world the truth, that not all americans are complete buttheads.

minta maaf to those families who lost their military sons and daughters in the war.

However ineffective the UN has been in Iraq and other places- they are one of several legitimate players who have role in fixing the mess. UN alone cant do much. But what they can do is give another element of consensus.
Chris, I agree, he should minta maaf to those families.
But when was the last time a world leader admitted a major blunder? “Hey, I got that one wrong. Now I ask all interested in fixing this mess to come aboard and find a way that works.” He would win Nobel prize, and Bono would have to release another album. Yikes.

I have no love for Saddam the Insane. I totally agree with Bush and the neo-cons that Saddam had to go. I just don’t think that he is worth sacrificing the lives of our young men and women.

Instead of going in ourselves, we could have just armed and trained the Sunnis and Kurds. And let them fight Saddam’s army on the ground with our air force providing air support and going after Saddam’s heavy armors. Just bomb the crap out of them, then go home.

“minta maaf to those families who lost their military sons and daughters in the war. just don’t think that he is worth sacrificing the lives of our young men and women.”

fuck, do you hear yourself talking, sacrifice, thes dudes chose themselves to go fight in this war. If there weren’t any soldiers, there wouldn’t be a war, let the bobo’s and the big shots fight their own war. ANd our soldiers protecting us, please, there juts abused instruments. yes, they are lives spilles meaningless, alowed by us government

US soldiers arent abused instruments. There are many examples of stupid dicisions made by military planners, and US duznt have monopoly on tht one. And it is a sacrifice- the only true sacrifice is a willing one. If its not willing, its called an accident.

you are right, but these soldiers think they are willing, but an unknowing person cannot know if he is willing or not willing, the mediocrete soldier is just brainwashed. actually, i dont want to care about it. The fact that they are accessable for this shit tells something about their intrinsic value.
I’m out of here, you americans, go live in your own patriotic America. I piss on what has become of it.

“The UN has proven time and time again that they make situations worse. No amount of reason will change your mind.”
Tony ya. Why u wanna chng my mind? Im just pointing out tht UN has valuable role in it all. UN doesnt always make situations worse. It seems like you have limited knowledge base abt this stuff, esp about UN’s role in enacting sustainable change. If you think UN is all stupid and all useless, then I suggest you be a bit more open minded to a wider swath of history.

‘ That would work fine, but coud you imagine the naysayers. “America doesn’t wanna fight it’s own battles, blah, blah blah.” ‘

Yeah, I can imagine that. But at least it won’t get us bogged down in a desert shit-hole like Iraq. And we won’t lose the public support for the war when the going gets tough like right now.

After having spent $500B and lost 2100 lives, what do we have to show? A Total Mess. I have many friends who served (some are still serving) over there. Most don’t have confidence in the future of Iraq. Most believe that Iraq is broken beyond repair at this point.

hahaha, ur funny. try to separate ur feelings on the UN and its actual role as a body that can accomodate differnt countries. Dont hope to much from them, or u get overly negative and silly in your observations. but hey, its a public forum.

u go girl

Toney, please spell check: it’s “separate”, macaroni head.

s

ahh wonderful Toniiee, Flawless logic, It’s almost as if you were a pupil of Socrates himself. You sure tell it like it is.

Anyway

“Because McDonald’s is evil, right? Cheap, convenient food is the American imperialism”

Never said mcdonalds was evil. I said it was progress dumb dumb

“Iraqis were given the option of voting the last elections, and 8 million of them voted. An overwhelming vote of cofidence in their new found freedom to vote. Democracy and freedom is everyone’s birthright.”

Yes, of course they did, when did i try and deny that. As for it being everyone’s birth right no, you are born, you die, thats it.

“America had nothing to do with Saddam running Iraq. You’re going to have to explain to me how America created this corrupt rulers, corrupt governments, the threat of Islamic extremism (Islamists are still pissed about the Crusades).”

Hmm, it really would appear your History is extremely poor. Please if you want to keep discussing this you need to spend some time studying to at least gain some grounding in this area.

“You’re right. Iraqis are running their own country, with the security of the American military. It’s fantastic progress I know. You need to provide some evidence that Afghanistan is controlled by mullahs and warlords. All proof I have says otherwise.”

Yes and what fantastic security it is that the US is providing. Hahahahahah.
Also you have no proof about Afghanistan apart from perhaps the propaganda you are fed from the US government untill you have been there and seen for yourself you know nothing. At the very least to say that Afghanistan is not run by warlords shows that you do not even have the vaguest idea who makes up the present government of Afghanistan, if you did you really would have to cringe and just how stupid you make yourself sound.

Anyway,

http://www.socialistalternative.org/justice29/18.html

http://rwor.org/a/1219/wtwafg1.htm

http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-2/506/506_02_Afghanistan.shtml

http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/07/afghan072903.htm

http://www.rawa.org/warlords.htm

http://newstandardnews.net/content/?action=show_item&itemid=132

http://www.pinr.com/report.php?ac=view_report&report_id=400&language_id=1

http://www.socialistworld.net/eng/2004/10/07afghan.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0908/p07s01-wosc.html

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/aug2002/afgh-a02.shtml

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/ft-warlords1.htm

http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insight/articles/pp111805.shtml

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/

IRIN/c5b9823861f848aa275790aece09e875.htm

enough for now I think let me know if you would like more.

“You’ll have to provide evidence to me of Bush not knowing a single thing about the makeup of Iraq. It’s kind of childish view you have were you believe Bush has to make every decision on his own without outside advice. I would consider it irresponsible.”

Evidence? You really want evidence? What would you like a signed confession from Mr Bush or Mr Blair. jesus just how dumb are you? The only evidence you’ll ever need is stareing you in the face, the present situation in Iraq, Al Quada influenced sunni minority an Iran influenced shia majority, a war zone in large parts of the country, huge unemployment, people starving, the oil pipeline being constantly blown up, the US entrneched in a hugely costly war (in both money and lives) that is cannot get out of and cannot afford, etc etc etc. I think it is hugely disrespectful to Mr Bush to suggest that he did understand Iraq because anyone in their right mind who did understand Iraq would not have done this.

“Iraqis hate Iranians and the other way around, dumb dumb. Iranian shiites killed Iraqi shiites in the war. By the millions. I can’t work out what you’re arguing because it only strengthens my point.”

Strengthens you point how exactly? It doesn’t at all. Maybe in tonieee land full of 5 year old kids where you always get to have the last word, hahahahha.

The point being you miserably stupid individual hahaha, It is the US government, the guys you believe without question, the ones bollocks you’d love to suck that are the biggest accusers and believers of Iran and it’s religious leaders influencing and allying with Iraq and aiding in terrorist activities, read the newspapers, switch on Fox, listen to the radio. Nobody is more scared and worried by this than the US government. Just what the fu*k do you think they have been talking about

hahahhaahhahahahahaahahaahhhhhaahahahhahahhahahahhaha
hhaaahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahhahahaha
hahhahahahhahahahhahahahhahahahahhahhahahahahhahahhaha
hahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahhahah
ahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahha, jesus man you kill me.

“I back it all up with facts and reason. You cannot refute any of it.”

Oh thats right tonieee, you tell it like it is, right? Sorry I’ve seen no facts or reason from you, just you being a good little gimp being manipulated to worry about the future of your civilization, hahaha See ya gimpy I knackered after that lot, and sorry to all the blog readers for the rantings as well.

Yawn Gimpy, don’t you ever get tired of not understanding why don’t you do some reading for once instead of spending all your time on this blog, hahahah

“You implied there’s something wrong with McDonald’s being in Iraq, like a typical lefty”

No I didn’t love a big mac and fries me, as for me being a lefty, I already told I love Ayn Rand, but I don’t suppose you’d have a clue who she is., hahahahhahahha.

“You didn’t even read those articles. The CSM one says they’ve been taking warlords off the ballots. Quite a bit different to warlords running the country, ya clown.”

umm, if you’d read further than the title you would have understood a little more

“The rest are op-ed pieces for socialist rags, that cite no statistics or facts.”

I’m sorry Gimpy exactly what facts and staitistics would you firstly like me to provide, exactly please, and what facts and statistics have you provided?
Apart of course from you saying that “you tell it like it is.”

“I can froth at the mouth too. You have to make an argument to refute me, son. Something to prove Iraqis and Iranians have suddenly ended hostilities after fighting wars that cost several million lives.”

I’ll explain again very carefully this time so as to help you to understand. ask your local newspaper, ask fox, ask up the white house press office, ask a grown up or just ask anyone that has watched the TV or read a newspaper over the last few weeks whether the American goverment believes the Iranians have been supporting the Iraqi shia in the south of Iraq and see what your answer is. Now i’m sure even you can do that.

“You’re saying people have no right to live in a democracy with their very own personal freedoms. Wow. Astounding. Typical commie though.”

Nope, never said that. Although I agree with you whoever did say it certainly sounds like a commie.

“Yes, I want some evidence. I’ll keep asking until you provide.”

Ok short of a signed confession from messers Blair and Bush please download this program from the internet it contains interviews and statements from experts (thinktanks as you call them) that were consulted by the bush and blair governements with regards to Iraq prior to the invasion.

http://www.channel4.com/news/microsites/I/iraq_the_reckoning/

“Okay, I get it, I’m being manipulated.”

Good I’m glad you do.